Alison, curious about your opinion of the workshop model. It's the old Iowa framework, and it still seems to be standard. In my experience, it can amount to little more than sharing ignorance, and can be really demoralizing in the worst case scenario.
I'm trying to advertise my coaching practice with this in mind, since I really believe that a tutorial with a coach might offer more growth for many writers (at a fraction of the cost) than an MFA. My work was transformed by a single semester spent with Ted Kooser: once a week for 30 minutes. He was a discerning reader, and so aligning my sensibility with his was far more valuable than trying to please 10-15 peers who may or may not know anything about my genre or my intended audience.
I have complicated thoughts on the workshop. When they're doing what they should, there's nothing else quite like it. It takes strong "leadership," but Tao-like leadership... from behind!
I did a lot of experimentation with facilitating when I was teaching.
It should not devolve to sharing ignorance or any of the horror stories. But those stories do emerge. Alas.
I'm not a fan of the current milieu in academia--the trigger warnings and such. It's hard enough to be an artist and to share work and be open. I could go on, but that is a much longer piece...
As for finding a mentor: finding a solid fit for both you and your work can work well. Knowing when to move on, or when it's not working, is key. Again, a huge topic!
At this point, for my own work, I have a group of three of us, and we work together with mutual respect and professionalism.
Joshua, I so appreciate your thoughts here.
I was going to leave this as a Medium piece--but am glad I shared here.
Yes, I'm sorry for overstating the case. I've likened the ideal workshop experience as akin to a spiritual gathering of true believers. And when I taught creative writing courses, like you, I placed a lot of emphasis on skill-building and shared expectations for quality of feedback. But you're so right about how many ways the workshop experience can go sideways in today's climate. The default is not an atmosphere of trust.
I do think if writers can open and share experiences, whether with learning/institutions or publishers, agents... all spheres. We need to know what's Out There!
It's useful to know that academic instruction terminology. If I had known that as a university student, I could have figured out more easily which of my instructors had tenure and which didn't.
You have a magical way of writing about the exact questions I’m thinking about. I suppose I’m a mid career playwright now, not formally trained, and trying to transition into writing novels. I live near a prestigious program and part of me thinks ‘why not try’ and another bit thinks ‘you’re just stalling. Do do do’. And another bit thinks ‘you won’t get accepted so dont fail’ I’m going to look into it with an open mind and I think you’re right: go hard with the writing groups. I have a really good one and just need to try to participate harder (7am morning class which is awesome and/but I have young kids....). Thanks for writing this Alison.
Every moment of time I've injected into my current writing group over the years, always comes back in many ways. Even as times come, and groups change...
Another question to ask, come to think of it, would be about the number of so-called "mature" students or "unclassified" per workshop.
In my earlier years of teaching, I was able to admit one, two, or more of such folks into each workshop. (Max 13 participants) Such people would frequently be published writers--like you, possibly in another field of writing, at times--or someone with some life knowledge, and solid writing abilities, but not necessarily a student in the program.
These writers ALWAYS brought a significant contribution to the workshop! ALWAYS.
But then there was a shift. In the last couple years I was teaching, with all the bizarre (to my mind) focus on creating "safe spaces," these people were no longer allowed to apply to take part; there was a sense that "program students" would not feel "safe" with such in the room. This is a huge loss. A bit of madness, truly.
Oh, I need to stop... or I'll just go on about the nonsense!
While it wasn't an Official Workshop exactly, I did take some undergraduate creative writing courses in which there were a few students who were middle-aged, and they made it wondrous! Some of them had publishing experience, and others saw themselves as "life-long learners" who were mainly here to learn stuff for the joy of it. They always seemed to be full of interesting insights on creativity and life, and told us interesting stuff all the different jobs they've had, and everything that led up them taking this course (more or less). I remember the middle-aged people/mature students being a wise/gentle presence amidst all of us annoying twenty-something year-olds who were all stressed out about GPA's. I also admired their courage to take a course in which the majority of students were a lot younger than they were. I think sometimes some grown-ups (and possible people in general, no matter what age) don't always like learning alongside people who are much younger than they are, so seeing the middle-aged people be happy to be here was rather inspiring to see, and made me think about how when I am fifty-something years old then I can still learn interesting stuff, even if you're the only fifty or sixty or eighty or one hundred-something year-old in the class, and you don't have to feel like your education is a race where you have to zoom around learning everything before you turn twenty-five or thirty or whatever age.
So much truth here, and so good to hear your perspective on this as a younger student at the time. Older students DO have a calming presence, and their joy in learning is infectious.
When I took figure-skating as a kid, I started at age 12 which felt old to me... but then the fellow next to me (when the ice is divided into 22 sections to practice the figures!) must have been in his 40s which seemed quite ancient. Someone with no aspirations to be in the Olympics was a palpable relief! I remember thinking about him: he opened the world up for my young mind--he made me think that I have years ahead of me, and time to do many things.
Thank you for sharing this, Kathryn! You've captured the fears and the positives! Students have much to gain from a breadth of folks within the classroom.
Alison, I'm so grateful you decided to share this instead of leaving this on Medium where I might not have found it. Josh shared it with me in notes, knowing that I'm applying to programs myself. I'm a mature student in the sense that Im in my 40s, with multiple degrees and even more life experience, but am not a published writer (yet). I'm deciding on schools to apply to, so your post is timely.
What if any of the questions you shared would be different for a low-residency program? Are there any additional questions to consider when deciding on a low-residency MFA program?
Good question! I did a low-res program at Antioch U in LA, in their creative writing pedagogy program--which was quite amazing!
That's probably why I included the piece about student-teacher ratio, and thoughts about not getting caught up in a teacher's credentials. You're better served by checking out their written works, maybe finding an interview or something to indicate they are a person of generous spirit--something you want in a teacher! (To my mind, anyway!)
One difference that always stood out for me, between the low-res part of the program I worked within, and the "traditional" part, was that mature students tended to gravitate to the low-res. At the time I left, there was a better sense of community in the low-res, to my mind. They're scattered all over the world, writing as we do--with a sense of the solitary--and so the connections were of more value... was my take.
If you have questions, let me know. And if I have further thoughts through the day or two, I'll add to! All the best with this process, Latham!
Why in God's name would ANYone want to get an MFA?? (Aside from the cache factor: "SHE has an *MFA!*") One program I looked into cost $20,000. How am I supposed to do that when I can't pay the student loans I incurred to get the day job I am so fortunate I have since NObody I know trying to write has ever made a livable income for very long.
Jessica Wildfire reports that her MFA instructors talked as if a publishing career were going to be a given. (She is now teaching.) Heather Demetrios reports that her MFA program taught her NOTHING about how the business of writing actually works ... leading her to believe after two big book contracts she had it made. (Heh ... heh ... heh.)
If these programs cost so much and are so misleading, WTF do people do them??? Especially since, as I've said, NObody I know has ever made livable money from writing, at least not for more than a couple of years at best.
Considering that nobody wants to hire writers, nobody wants to pay them, and if a publishing house does accept you (faint, faint!) you will be expected to do ALL your own marketing, and you had better be a whiz at it because you will be dropped because "you" didn't sell ... why don't we all get a degree in marketing instead??
I've had too many projects been turned down by the marketing team, while wanted by editors, sitting together at those acquisitions meeting... to say "yes" to that :) But I get your point.
I did learn in my MFA program. I also walked away with 12 extra credits because I took courses through the summer months. I did the program in the minimum amount of time with the max of work put in, and made certain I did not go into debt for it--I couldn't justify that. Canadian tuition, even for the best schools here, is still inexpensive though.
But at the end of the day I didn't learn anything that I couldn't by reading and writing and finding a group to work together with. And in the current shape that institutions are in, I wouldn't want to go near a program.
People now do it as a path to teach within the same system. And, if they can afford it, they do it--possibly--because deadlines created by others are easier to live with, and while in school, family and others are less likely to pester you about what you're doing; there's that.
Yes--the days of an editor being able to defend a work and see it through to light-of-day...are gone. Those marketing folks have Power with their bean-counting and number-crunching. I've given up counting how many projects have excited an editor, only to receive a note saying that the marketing people just couldn't get behind the project.
But I enjoy writing too much to do the marketing of self-publishing. I HAVE self-published (2 OOP novels and one cozy mystery for kids on Draft2Digital) but have neither time nor energy to market. Just sold my 12th book to a traditional publisher--still my preferred way.
A really interesting article. And it obviously touched a nerve that resulted in many interesting comments. I considered the MFA program years ago...thinking maybe it would turn me into a great writer. But I was encouraged to WRITE my way into being a better writer instead. I'm not there yet, but then again my money is still in the bank. I've also had an editor love my book proposal to only have the marketing team reject it. Anyway, I appreciate all the things I'm learning from Unschool. Best $5 a month I've ever spent.
I feel that the very nature of post-secondary is changing. But then again, perhaps if everyone stays away... it really will. But the $$ focus is everywhere and hard to escape. Even while the process of working through an MFA should be foundational as an artist... Ah, I could rant on. Suffice to say, WRITING is key; you made a good choice. Actively writing. I knew far too many people who could only write to a deadline imposed by someone else; key to writing must be the capacity to write to your own deadline.
I've had a number of projects now, taken to acquisitions meetings by editors who have fought for them, and then been turned down by the bean counters. I'm sorry to hear--it's a tough piece to swallow! It's the $$ focus again.
Why we need to find all the joy in this crazy-making thing we do! That's sustaining!
Alison, curious about your opinion of the workshop model. It's the old Iowa framework, and it still seems to be standard. In my experience, it can amount to little more than sharing ignorance, and can be really demoralizing in the worst case scenario.
I'm trying to advertise my coaching practice with this in mind, since I really believe that a tutorial with a coach might offer more growth for many writers (at a fraction of the cost) than an MFA. My work was transformed by a single semester spent with Ted Kooser: once a week for 30 minutes. He was a discerning reader, and so aligning my sensibility with his was far more valuable than trying to please 10-15 peers who may or may not know anything about my genre or my intended audience.
My two cents.
I have complicated thoughts on the workshop. When they're doing what they should, there's nothing else quite like it. It takes strong "leadership," but Tao-like leadership... from behind!
I did a lot of experimentation with facilitating when I was teaching.
It should not devolve to sharing ignorance or any of the horror stories. But those stories do emerge. Alas.
I'm not a fan of the current milieu in academia--the trigger warnings and such. It's hard enough to be an artist and to share work and be open. I could go on, but that is a much longer piece...
As for finding a mentor: finding a solid fit for both you and your work can work well. Knowing when to move on, or when it's not working, is key. Again, a huge topic!
At this point, for my own work, I have a group of three of us, and we work together with mutual respect and professionalism.
Joshua, I so appreciate your thoughts here.
I was going to leave this as a Medium piece--but am glad I shared here.
Yes, I'm sorry for overstating the case. I've likened the ideal workshop experience as akin to a spiritual gathering of true believers. And when I taught creative writing courses, like you, I placed a lot of emphasis on skill-building and shared expectations for quality of feedback. But you're so right about how many ways the workshop experience can go sideways in today's climate. The default is not an atmosphere of trust.
Yes, I've added thought here... check out my words to Arthur, below. The "safety" stuff is just so odd, as if creating is ever "safe."
As a teacher I used to go in fear that someone would report me for some breach of perceived "safety." Oh, the irony.
I appreciate your frankness.
I do think if writers can open and share experiences, whether with learning/institutions or publishers, agents... all spheres. We need to know what's Out There!
It's useful to know that academic instruction terminology. If I had known that as a university student, I could have figured out more easily which of my instructors had tenure and which didn't.
Ha! They really seem not to want to spell it out. And once it's out there... they have a way of changing it up again. Oh my.
You have a magical way of writing about the exact questions I’m thinking about. I suppose I’m a mid career playwright now, not formally trained, and trying to transition into writing novels. I live near a prestigious program and part of me thinks ‘why not try’ and another bit thinks ‘you’re just stalling. Do do do’. And another bit thinks ‘you won’t get accepted so dont fail’ I’m going to look into it with an open mind and I think you’re right: go hard with the writing groups. I have a really good one and just need to try to participate harder (7am morning class which is awesome and/but I have young kids....). Thanks for writing this Alison.
Every moment of time I've injected into my current writing group over the years, always comes back in many ways. Even as times come, and groups change...
Another question to ask, come to think of it, would be about the number of so-called "mature" students or "unclassified" per workshop.
In my earlier years of teaching, I was able to admit one, two, or more of such folks into each workshop. (Max 13 participants) Such people would frequently be published writers--like you, possibly in another field of writing, at times--or someone with some life knowledge, and solid writing abilities, but not necessarily a student in the program.
These writers ALWAYS brought a significant contribution to the workshop! ALWAYS.
But then there was a shift. In the last couple years I was teaching, with all the bizarre (to my mind) focus on creating "safe spaces," these people were no longer allowed to apply to take part; there was a sense that "program students" would not feel "safe" with such in the room. This is a huge loss. A bit of madness, truly.
Oh, I need to stop... or I'll just go on about the nonsense!
Wow. 😱 Madness indeed.
While it wasn't an Official Workshop exactly, I did take some undergraduate creative writing courses in which there were a few students who were middle-aged, and they made it wondrous! Some of them had publishing experience, and others saw themselves as "life-long learners" who were mainly here to learn stuff for the joy of it. They always seemed to be full of interesting insights on creativity and life, and told us interesting stuff all the different jobs they've had, and everything that led up them taking this course (more or less). I remember the middle-aged people/mature students being a wise/gentle presence amidst all of us annoying twenty-something year-olds who were all stressed out about GPA's. I also admired their courage to take a course in which the majority of students were a lot younger than they were. I think sometimes some grown-ups (and possible people in general, no matter what age) don't always like learning alongside people who are much younger than they are, so seeing the middle-aged people be happy to be here was rather inspiring to see, and made me think about how when I am fifty-something years old then I can still learn interesting stuff, even if you're the only fifty or sixty or eighty or one hundred-something year-old in the class, and you don't have to feel like your education is a race where you have to zoom around learning everything before you turn twenty-five or thirty or whatever age.
So much truth here, and so good to hear your perspective on this as a younger student at the time. Older students DO have a calming presence, and their joy in learning is infectious.
When I took figure-skating as a kid, I started at age 12 which felt old to me... but then the fellow next to me (when the ice is divided into 22 sections to practice the figures!) must have been in his 40s which seemed quite ancient. Someone with no aspirations to be in the Olympics was a palpable relief! I remember thinking about him: he opened the world up for my young mind--he made me think that I have years ahead of me, and time to do many things.
Thank you for sharing this, Kathryn! You've captured the fears and the positives! Students have much to gain from a breadth of folks within the classroom.
Alison, I'm so grateful you decided to share this instead of leaving this on Medium where I might not have found it. Josh shared it with me in notes, knowing that I'm applying to programs myself. I'm a mature student in the sense that Im in my 40s, with multiple degrees and even more life experience, but am not a published writer (yet). I'm deciding on schools to apply to, so your post is timely.
What if any of the questions you shared would be different for a low-residency program? Are there any additional questions to consider when deciding on a low-residency MFA program?
Thank you again for sharing this.
Good question! I did a low-res program at Antioch U in LA, in their creative writing pedagogy program--which was quite amazing!
That's probably why I included the piece about student-teacher ratio, and thoughts about not getting caught up in a teacher's credentials. You're better served by checking out their written works, maybe finding an interview or something to indicate they are a person of generous spirit--something you want in a teacher! (To my mind, anyway!)
One difference that always stood out for me, between the low-res part of the program I worked within, and the "traditional" part, was that mature students tended to gravitate to the low-res. At the time I left, there was a better sense of community in the low-res, to my mind. They're scattered all over the world, writing as we do--with a sense of the solitary--and so the connections were of more value... was my take.
If you have questions, let me know. And if I have further thoughts through the day or two, I'll add to! All the best with this process, Latham!
Your knowledge of how things REALLY work is such a resource, Alison! And I love how candid you are. 👏👏👏
Such programs are so much $$ and time. It's best to know going in...!
Thanks, Jolene!
Why in God's name would ANYone want to get an MFA?? (Aside from the cache factor: "SHE has an *MFA!*") One program I looked into cost $20,000. How am I supposed to do that when I can't pay the student loans I incurred to get the day job I am so fortunate I have since NObody I know trying to write has ever made a livable income for very long.
Jessica Wildfire reports that her MFA instructors talked as if a publishing career were going to be a given. (She is now teaching.) Heather Demetrios reports that her MFA program taught her NOTHING about how the business of writing actually works ... leading her to believe after two big book contracts she had it made. (Heh ... heh ... heh.)
If these programs cost so much and are so misleading, WTF do people do them??? Especially since, as I've said, NObody I know has ever made livable money from writing, at least not for more than a couple of years at best.
Considering that nobody wants to hire writers, nobody wants to pay them, and if a publishing house does accept you (faint, faint!) you will be expected to do ALL your own marketing, and you had better be a whiz at it because you will be dropped because "you" didn't sell ... why don't we all get a degree in marketing instead??
It would appear to be FAR more useful.
I've had too many projects been turned down by the marketing team, while wanted by editors, sitting together at those acquisitions meeting... to say "yes" to that :) But I get your point.
I did learn in my MFA program. I also walked away with 12 extra credits because I took courses through the summer months. I did the program in the minimum amount of time with the max of work put in, and made certain I did not go into debt for it--I couldn't justify that. Canadian tuition, even for the best schools here, is still inexpensive though.
But at the end of the day I didn't learn anything that I couldn't by reading and writing and finding a group to work together with. And in the current shape that institutions are in, I wouldn't want to go near a program.
People now do it as a path to teach within the same system. And, if they can afford it, they do it--possibly--because deadlines created by others are easier to live with, and while in school, family and others are less likely to pester you about what you're doing; there's that.
You mean the marketing team decides what gets published and not the editors??
The same marketing team that only does anything to support the publishing house's, oh ... two or three top authors???
Fuck, man. Self-publish and forget about it. Abandon hope all ye who enter here.
Yes--the days of an editor being able to defend a work and see it through to light-of-day...are gone. Those marketing folks have Power with their bean-counting and number-crunching. I've given up counting how many projects have excited an editor, only to receive a note saying that the marketing people just couldn't get behind the project.
But I enjoy writing too much to do the marketing of self-publishing. I HAVE self-published (2 OOP novels and one cozy mystery for kids on Draft2Digital) but have neither time nor energy to market. Just sold my 12th book to a traditional publisher--still my preferred way.
Hey Alison,
A really interesting article. And it obviously touched a nerve that resulted in many interesting comments. I considered the MFA program years ago...thinking maybe it would turn me into a great writer. But I was encouraged to WRITE my way into being a better writer instead. I'm not there yet, but then again my money is still in the bank. I've also had an editor love my book proposal to only have the marketing team reject it. Anyway, I appreciate all the things I'm learning from Unschool. Best $5 a month I've ever spent.
I feel that the very nature of post-secondary is changing. But then again, perhaps if everyone stays away... it really will. But the $$ focus is everywhere and hard to escape. Even while the process of working through an MFA should be foundational as an artist... Ah, I could rant on. Suffice to say, WRITING is key; you made a good choice. Actively writing. I knew far too many people who could only write to a deadline imposed by someone else; key to writing must be the capacity to write to your own deadline.
I've had a number of projects now, taken to acquisitions meetings by editors who have fought for them, and then been turned down by the bean counters. I'm sorry to hear--it's a tough piece to swallow! It's the $$ focus again.
Why we need to find all the joy in this crazy-making thing we do! That's sustaining!