Thanks for your thoughts here, Monica. I have to say I left out so much... so your point about being the one discussed/spoken of, not the one speaking, is good to bring into this--especially in terms of story-telling. We've all experienced this to some degree.
Cindy has added all sorts to the conversation, too! Including touching on the urge to share something with another, once we know... What does it ask of us to hold a secret?
So much of writing fiction is so rooted in our lived lives. It's a challenge to separate the threads to examine!
I think, like Cindy said, it's all about the intent. We all do it, and we can call it different names, from 'gossip' to... 'talking out loud to understand what I'm thinking'. But ultimately, it's about the intent behind it.
There's so much to think about in this post which seems to be more about being a human than about being a writer.
The word 'gossip' has an undeniably negative connotation. It always makes me think of the mean girls at school whispering and giggling as someone (me, often) walks by, telling stories that are meant to put down, to diminish. There may not be a conscious intent to harm, it may be that people are not conscious at all and seek only to amuse themselves and others, or it may be that they do intend outright harm. They don't call it malicious gossip for nothing.
Then there is talking with a friend about another person because one is struggling with understanding that person, with finding a way to deal with problems with that person. Of course confidences should never be broken, but if the intent is to learn, and perhaps also to offload, then I don't see harm in that AS LONG AS the person to whom one is speaking is not the sort to go blabbing. But also the sort who is wise enough to understand that they are only hearing one side, and it must be coloured by the perspective of the speaker.
As for how my writer self views this, I think that everything informs (if I let it). I don't think I need to talk about other people in order to be a better writer. I do think I need to talk about other people to survive. As someone who has no partner in whom to confide (I completely agree with you that it's unfair to ask a person to keep something from their partner), I think I would feel utterly on my own if I couldn't talk about any other human being with others. Perhaps the bottom line is, would I say to that person's face what I have said behind their back? Would they be okay with me talking about them? Hmmmm . . . more to think about.
Sorry for the late response, Cindy! The weekend was spent prone with covid! But today, much better.
"Everything informs." Yes. Yesterday I experienced that curious restless feeling I often have when ill, yet forget when I am not. I was really questioning its role in healing! ("Not," I'd think!) But how do busy people deal with being ill? Every day in a writer's life, there is something to note, to connect, to remember when creating story. I digress...! but am in agreement with this phrase of yours!
A solid point about those who do not have another's ear in their space. And the need to talk, to share. And about talking as survival. Do you think it's possible to write, and NOT find words about others and their lives in your conversation?
Altogether your thoughts here are about decency and finding the line, even as you acknowledge the need and/or urge to share stories.
I watched the Netflix documentary about Leonard Cohen and Marianne, his muse. Toward the end they shared a filmed clip of her listening to a letter he'd written. (I won't share more than this--in the event you watch.) While ultimately the piece fit with the whole, I have to admit that that moment seemed a step too far to me, too personal. I was left mulling over whether there was some other way to share that. If anyone has watched it, I'm curious about your thoughts! We've gotten so used to going deeply into others' lives, and feeling we have the right to be there.
And I ask myself: if it was a text-based account, I'd probably be just fine with it. Writing and reading, seem more respectful ways to explore. But having a camera in one's face...
I remember, many years ago, when a woman published a book that spread the legs of her relationship with an older male writer, wide. I use that graphic an image because that is how what she did it felt to me. She said that everything was material. I felt that she didn't deserve to ever be trusted with confidences, with intimacies, ever again. I sure wouldn't want to expose myself to someone who felt as she did about private moments.
Now, this was long before Me Too, and I do think that she was too young and he was too old for this relationship to be totally kosher, but I don't know. I didn't know them. I did know that how I felt was that something had been exposed that was private, and he had no say, while she was saying it all. Is this okay? Many say it's more than okay. Me, I want to take these exposures on a case by case basis. That's what your remarks about Cohen and his muse made me think of.
A friend of mine recently read my ms about my mom's immigration. Her main comment was that she wished I would write my own story. I responded that my story is no one's business but mine, that if I share my life with others in written form it will be veiled in fiction, always. Because, first of all, it's my life and I don't consider that public fodder. But no less importantly, if I tell my story I must tell others' stories and do I have the right? I think not. Because they won't be given room to tell their side of things. (This is not to say that I think others can't write their stories. It just doesn't fit for me.) I gave my mom's story to a fictional character, and I gave that character her own personality. And maybe the people who interact with her in the story are based on real people. Maybe my imagination played fast and loose. That's for me to know, and never to tell.
Talking about others: I have learned so much about how to care for others in need by having people who are struggling with helping loved ones share about those struggles. One thing I'm realizing is that SO many people don't know how to deal with crisis, to put our needs aside to meet the needs of another. I think we learn how do this by experience, but man, that's the hard way. The intelligent way is to learn by seeing others learn lessons. And most of that happens by sharing stories of struggles. Again, such a fine line. Is the person okay with their story being shared? Or can it be shared in a way in which they would be okay.
As always, the devil is in the details. We have to think about what we're doing and why.
Ah, the "intelligent way is to learn by seeing others" and "sharing stories of struggles." We do not live in a big space of our own.
And yes, I think that moment I spoke of in the documentary--of reading a note written by one, and filming another's reaction--begged the question of "is this what they wanted?" Maybe they were so used to having eyes on them, that they were okay with it. That is entirely possible. The film would have been different without that moment. Less? Maybe so. Artists make tough decisions. And it's tough to dig.
Stories show us--often surprising, sometimes shocking--other sides to human beings. They reveal actions and reactions that would not be our choice; they expand us. They open our minds. Hopefully, they cause us to grow in compassion. Our own stories--hopefully!--cause us to grow with empathy.
Thanks for posting your thoughts... feels as if we are meandering through this!
Could it be that we dislike much more being the target of gossip than gossiping?
I very much enjoyed though how you brought together 'talking about people' and literature. Really well said. Something to think about.
Thanks for your thoughts here, Monica. I have to say I left out so much... so your point about being the one discussed/spoken of, not the one speaking, is good to bring into this--especially in terms of story-telling. We've all experienced this to some degree.
Cindy has added all sorts to the conversation, too! Including touching on the urge to share something with another, once we know... What does it ask of us to hold a secret?
So much of writing fiction is so rooted in our lived lives. It's a challenge to separate the threads to examine!
I think, like Cindy said, it's all about the intent. We all do it, and we can call it different names, from 'gossip' to... 'talking out loud to understand what I'm thinking'. But ultimately, it's about the intent behind it.
There's so much to think about in this post which seems to be more about being a human than about being a writer.
The word 'gossip' has an undeniably negative connotation. It always makes me think of the mean girls at school whispering and giggling as someone (me, often) walks by, telling stories that are meant to put down, to diminish. There may not be a conscious intent to harm, it may be that people are not conscious at all and seek only to amuse themselves and others, or it may be that they do intend outright harm. They don't call it malicious gossip for nothing.
Then there is talking with a friend about another person because one is struggling with understanding that person, with finding a way to deal with problems with that person. Of course confidences should never be broken, but if the intent is to learn, and perhaps also to offload, then I don't see harm in that AS LONG AS the person to whom one is speaking is not the sort to go blabbing. But also the sort who is wise enough to understand that they are only hearing one side, and it must be coloured by the perspective of the speaker.
As for how my writer self views this, I think that everything informs (if I let it). I don't think I need to talk about other people in order to be a better writer. I do think I need to talk about other people to survive. As someone who has no partner in whom to confide (I completely agree with you that it's unfair to ask a person to keep something from their partner), I think I would feel utterly on my own if I couldn't talk about any other human being with others. Perhaps the bottom line is, would I say to that person's face what I have said behind their back? Would they be okay with me talking about them? Hmmmm . . . more to think about.
Sorry for the late response, Cindy! The weekend was spent prone with covid! But today, much better.
"Everything informs." Yes. Yesterday I experienced that curious restless feeling I often have when ill, yet forget when I am not. I was really questioning its role in healing! ("Not," I'd think!) But how do busy people deal with being ill? Every day in a writer's life, there is something to note, to connect, to remember when creating story. I digress...! but am in agreement with this phrase of yours!
A solid point about those who do not have another's ear in their space. And the need to talk, to share. And about talking as survival. Do you think it's possible to write, and NOT find words about others and their lives in your conversation?
Altogether your thoughts here are about decency and finding the line, even as you acknowledge the need and/or urge to share stories.
I watched the Netflix documentary about Leonard Cohen and Marianne, his muse. Toward the end they shared a filmed clip of her listening to a letter he'd written. (I won't share more than this--in the event you watch.) While ultimately the piece fit with the whole, I have to admit that that moment seemed a step too far to me, too personal. I was left mulling over whether there was some other way to share that. If anyone has watched it, I'm curious about your thoughts! We've gotten so used to going deeply into others' lives, and feeling we have the right to be there.
And I ask myself: if it was a text-based account, I'd probably be just fine with it. Writing and reading, seem more respectful ways to explore. But having a camera in one's face...
Why do I think this? I need to mull, too...
So much to mull.
I remember, many years ago, when a woman published a book that spread the legs of her relationship with an older male writer, wide. I use that graphic an image because that is how what she did it felt to me. She said that everything was material. I felt that she didn't deserve to ever be trusted with confidences, with intimacies, ever again. I sure wouldn't want to expose myself to someone who felt as she did about private moments.
Now, this was long before Me Too, and I do think that she was too young and he was too old for this relationship to be totally kosher, but I don't know. I didn't know them. I did know that how I felt was that something had been exposed that was private, and he had no say, while she was saying it all. Is this okay? Many say it's more than okay. Me, I want to take these exposures on a case by case basis. That's what your remarks about Cohen and his muse made me think of.
A friend of mine recently read my ms about my mom's immigration. Her main comment was that she wished I would write my own story. I responded that my story is no one's business but mine, that if I share my life with others in written form it will be veiled in fiction, always. Because, first of all, it's my life and I don't consider that public fodder. But no less importantly, if I tell my story I must tell others' stories and do I have the right? I think not. Because they won't be given room to tell their side of things. (This is not to say that I think others can't write their stories. It just doesn't fit for me.) I gave my mom's story to a fictional character, and I gave that character her own personality. And maybe the people who interact with her in the story are based on real people. Maybe my imagination played fast and loose. That's for me to know, and never to tell.
Talking about others: I have learned so much about how to care for others in need by having people who are struggling with helping loved ones share about those struggles. One thing I'm realizing is that SO many people don't know how to deal with crisis, to put our needs aside to meet the needs of another. I think we learn how do this by experience, but man, that's the hard way. The intelligent way is to learn by seeing others learn lessons. And most of that happens by sharing stories of struggles. Again, such a fine line. Is the person okay with their story being shared? Or can it be shared in a way in which they would be okay.
As always, the devil is in the details. We have to think about what we're doing and why.
Ah, the "intelligent way is to learn by seeing others" and "sharing stories of struggles." We do not live in a big space of our own.
And yes, I think that moment I spoke of in the documentary--of reading a note written by one, and filming another's reaction--begged the question of "is this what they wanted?" Maybe they were so used to having eyes on them, that they were okay with it. That is entirely possible. The film would have been different without that moment. Less? Maybe so. Artists make tough decisions. And it's tough to dig.
Stories show us--often surprising, sometimes shocking--other sides to human beings. They reveal actions and reactions that would not be our choice; they expand us. They open our minds. Hopefully, they cause us to grow in compassion. Our own stories--hopefully!--cause us to grow with empathy.
Thanks for posting your thoughts... feels as if we are meandering through this!